HO HO HO! 2008

David, after answering my last post, please answers this:

What God conception are we talking about?

THEISM: Theism in the broadest sense is the belief in at least one deity. In a more specific sense, theism refers to a particular doctrine concerning the nature of a god and his relationship to the universe. Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of a god as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe.

DEISM: Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without the need for either faith
or organized religion. Deists tend to, but do not necessarily, reject
the notion that God intervenes in human affairs, for example through
miracles and revelations. These views contrast with the dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Jewish, Christian, Islamic and other theistic teachings.

PANTHEISM: Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical, or that the Universe (including Nature on Earth) is the only thing deserving the deepest kind of reverence. As such Pantheism promotes the idea that God is better understood as a way of relating to nature and the Universe as a whole - all that was, is and shall be - rather than as a transcendent, mental, personal or creator entity. Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god.
Although there are divergences within Pantheism, the central ideas
found in almost all versions are the Cosmos as an all-encompassing
unity and the "sacredness" of Nature.

PANENTHEISM: Panentheism is a belief system which posits that God
exists and interpenetrates every part of nature, and timelessly extends
beyond as well. Panentheism is distinguished from pantheism, which holds that God is synonymous with the material universe. Briefly put, in pantheism, "God is the whole"; in panentheism, "The whole is in God."

ATHEISM: Atheism is commonly defined as the position that there are no deities. It can also mean the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. A broader definition is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.

Source: wikipedia.

Amaraticando wrote:

If God exist(ed), he didn't create himself. It is impossible, cause and effect's axioms are violated. So, God should have to be eternal or created by natural processes. But if God is the creator, so he has to be eternal. But I can say that Universe is eternal too. That is the correct thing, according to Physics.

Sincerely, dont try to apply the science to religion. It's stupid
Let's think that christian religion is true and God created himself, etc.

Hey, that's impossible! How can he had been since the eternity? Its physically/biologic/etc(ly) impossible. But who the hell could have explain the gravity 2000 years ago? I think its the same. There are forces that we can't explain and is easy to say "thats impossible", "i dont believe in that" or whatever. Was the same with the ghosts years ago.

BTWrayder I believe in Ashtar Sheran

Amaraticando wrote:

2) The galaxies and planets don't need God to exist. They are being born all the time. When a star explodes, new planets or stars can be born. Galaxies are a little more complex, but still doesn't need God.

I know actually the galaxies, stars and planets are created by a lot of phenomens in the space but, i don't know of what materials was made the big ball of the big bang, but do u really think that by a great explotion appeared our universe in his perfect actual state? How did the equilibrium, harmony, and order of this universe develop?

Amaraticando wrote:

3) Life doesn't need God to exist. Life appeared on earth billions years ago. Extremely simple life forms. Evolution explains how those simple life forms became complex. Evolution has many proofs. But the origin of life is hard to test.

how can life appeared from a xplotion? how life can appeared from materials without life? how can arrive that life to our planet? as u said there is no way to explain the origin of the life by scientifics arguments, there must be a master mind for all this

Amaraticando wrote:

4) The origin of inteligence, better, the origin of conscience is a good point for the theist/deist side. I am unable to explain this, but remember the Argumentum ad Ignorantiam.

4 me the origin of intelligence must be born from a pefect source of intelligence, maybe god? as u said this is a good point for the theist, how can born the conscience? or the life from the caos of a explotion?

Amaraticando wrote:

If God exist(ed), he didn't create himself. It is impossible, cause and effect's axioms are violated. So, God should have to be eternal or created by natural processes. But if God is the creator, so he has to be eternal. But I can say that Universe is eternal too. That is the correct thing, according to Physics.

man u support to much in physics, do u really think that our physics and our maths are perfects? or that they works in all the parts of the universe? i doubt it, also we just know a little part of the universe, maybe God comes from another dimention, another universe before this one, we know so little...and i doubt that the man will know the answer for these questions some day.

Amaraticando wrote:

where?

oh cmon man i sayed some posts ago: obviously indirect proofs

-stigmas
-demoniac possesions
-the entire universe
-ghosts
-sasha grey :p

Amaraticando wrote:

What God conception are we talking about?

theism

Dober wrote:

Sincerely, dont try to apply the science to religion.

I can! Because:
1) Religion usually make scientific assertions. For example, various christians say that our planet stopped spinning, during almost 24 hours. It's a scientific AND FALSE proposition.
2) Many religion claim to be science. The best example: criacionists. But, they are just PSEUDO-scientist.

Dober wrote:

It's stupid
Let's think that christian religion is true and God created himself, etc.

Christianism says that God always existed.

Dober wrote:

Hey, that's impossible! How can he had been since the eternity? Its physically/biologic/etc(ly) impossible.

I said it's impossible (to anyone) to create himself, because of cause and effect. It's not only science. It's pure logic. And God can't transcend logic. The definition of omnipotence is sometimes: "to be able to do anything that is not inconsistent"

Dober wrote:

But who the hell could have explain the gravity 2000 years ago?

No one. For this, they created imaginary friends to explain it.

Dober wrote:

I think its the same. There are forces that we can't explain and is easy to say "thats impossible", "i dont believe in that" or whatever. Was the same with the ghosts years ago.

Wait! Ignorance can't prove that God exist. Like I said, it's a fallacy called Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. And why don't you prove that there're ghosts?
The confirmed existence of ghosts or spirits will mow down the number of atheists, although they(phantons) don't EVEN prove that God exist.

Davidctr72 wrote:

oh cmon man i sayed some posts ago: obviously indirect proofs

-stigmas
Don't make me laugh! Every religion has its impostors and tricksters!

-demoniac possesions
Demoniac possesions don't exist. And look at my ranking on this forum!
1) I know many churchs that contract poor people to PRETEND to be possessed.
2) Suggestion explains many possessions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion
3) Mental problems too.
4) By knowing the history of the religions, I know that demons got into jews culture just AFTER the Babylonian exile.
5) Everyone who gets possessed are from some church or spiritualist religion. I never see an atheist or agnostic in this state!!! Why?

-the entire universe
Our last comments were about this.

-ghosts
Again ghosts? Proofs please!
Why do latin american tend to believe in ghosts or spirits? Kardec would love this!

-sasha grey :p
WTF?

Amaraticando wrote:

Davidctr72 wrote:

oh cmon man i sayed some posts ago: obviously indirect proofs

-stigmas
Don't make me laugh! Every religion has its impostors and tricksters!

-demoniac possesions
Demoniac possesions don't exist. And look at my ranking on this forum!
1) I know many churchs that contract poor people to PRETEND to be possessed.
2) Suggestion explains many possessions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion
3) Mental problems too.
4) By knowing the history of the religions, I know that demons got into jews culture just AFTER the Babylonian exile.
5) Everyone who gets possessed are from some church or spiritualist religion. I never see an atheist or agnostic in this state!!! Why?

-the entire universe
Our last comments were about this.

-ghosts
Again ghosts? Proofs please!
Why do latin american tend to believe in ghosts or spirits? Kardec would love this!

-sasha grey :p
WTF?

Me don't believe in ghosts! Or Spirits!

Davidctr72 wrote:

God, who is God?

Well God must be the most powerfull entity on this universe

why must he be the most powerful in the universe, surely you dont know (assuming for a second that the creation theory is the right one) that he is the most powerful. you must have some idea of the vast scape of the universe, how did all the other galaxies, planets etc get created? is there a god for each galaxy?

Davidctr72 wrote:

anyway i'm totally sure that SOMEONE created the universe, impossible by the chance

not impossible, any number of connections of chance is possible, look at examples of random genetic mutations that have caused things that we all know today eg. wheat, bananas

Davidctr72 wrote:

where? how can somebody answer that?

exactly, how can you answer that? because the idea as amaraticando has pointed out, is not falsifiable. just because you cant prove something is wrong, doesnt mean it must be right. eg.
"yesterday i witnessed a flying mystical dragon made from aluminium"
how can you prove that this does not exist? therefore it must be true?

Davidctr72 wrote:

how life can appeared from materials without life?

good question, but you must believe this to be true, as god is not a living entity if real by the definition of living.

Davidctr72 wrote:

as u said there is no way to explain the origin of the life by scientifics arguments

but you can begin to theorize about how this happened eg. (off the top of my head) plants do not have conciousness. fact. but they do display responses to their environment (tropisms eg phototropism, where a plant will turn to face the sun to allow most light) this relatively simple response could have turned to the relatively more complex responses that we have and use today, afterall, all of everything we do boils down to being a response to something, these responses could have just got slowly more and more complex as we evolved. theres a theory about conciousness and thats from someone with no proper qualifications off the top of my head.

Amaraticando wrote:

I can! Because:
1) Religion usually make scientific assertions. For example, various christians say that our planet stopped spinning, during almost 24 hours. It's a scientific AND FALSE proposition.
2) Many religion claim to be science. The best example: criacionists. But, they are just PSEUDO-scientist.

I said that counting all humans. We try to explain those mysterious things with our precarious science. You just didn't get me.

Amaraticando wrote:

Christianism says that God always existed.

I was talking about David's last post and trying to give just an example. I don't know to much about christianism.

Amaraticando wrote:

I said it's impossible (to anyone) to create himself, because of cause and effect. It's not only science. It's pure logic. And God can't transcend logic. The definition of omnipotence is sometimes: "to be able to do anything that is not inconsistent"

You forgot that our logic is generated according to our knowledge of science. (Our science)

Amaraticando wrote:

No one. For this, they created imaginary friends to explain it.

Then that imaginary friend was called Gravity.

Amaraticando wrote:

Wait! Ignorance can't prove that God exist. Like I said, it's a fallacy called Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. And why don't you prove that there're ghosts?
The confirmed existence of ghosts or spirits will mow down the number of atheists, although they(phantons) don't EVEN prove that God exist.

Ignorance is relative. Steven Hawking can be the most intelligent man for us, the humans. But go to know if martians look at him as a stupid ignorant. (Martians as example, of course)

About ghosts. I never said that are those white dudes with black eyes or dead people appareances. I meant those strange magnetism, hot spots, rare energy, orbs, etc in certain places. All detected by electronic instruments (scientifically)

BTWrayder, who put you that rank?

Logic was not generated according to our knowledge of science, but all our science is indeed based on logic (the scientific method).

Like amaraticando said, logic (or maths for that matter) is disconnected to the physical word, it is abstract.

Jacob Stirling wrote:

why must he be the most powerful in the universe, surely you dont know (assuming for a second that the creation theory is the right one) that he is the most powerful. you must have some idea of the vast scape of the universe, how did all the other galaxies, planets etc get created? is there a god for each galaxy?

of course actually galaxies and planets created by a lot of phenomens, of course there is not God for each galaxie, as i said before, i believe that God was the one that lit the flame, the one that starts all, the one that created the things necessarys for the operation of the universe, as u prepare the ingredients for a strawberry juice, u cut the fruits, u broke the eggs, u put all them on a blendem, then u push the bottom and then your work is over, the blendem is the one that made all the work, u don't need mix the fruits with your hands. 4 me God was the one that prepared and push the bottom for the great machine of the universe begin to work. without the one that press the bottom the blendem will never start to work.

Jacob Stirling wrote:

not impossible, any number of connections of chance is possible, look at examples of random genetic mutations that have caused things that we all know today eg. wheat, bananas

So for you our lifes and all the universe are just the result of the luck? that 4 me hasn't sense

Jacob Stirling wrote:

exactly, how can you answer that? because the idea as amaraticando has pointed out, is not falsifiable. just because you cant prove something is wrong, doesnt mean it must be right. eg.
"yesterday i witnessed a flying mystical dragon made from aluminium"
how can you prove that this does not exist? therefore it must be true?

u are right, there's no way to say your affirmation is wrong, and 4 that it doesn't mean to be true, but who says that God is true just cos you can't prove that it's false, we based on proofs, your flying mystical dragon has written a book? or was sense by a lot of people? or left his traces in some persons? or was historical recognized? just examples

Jacob Stirling wrote:

but you can begin to theorize about how this happened eg. (off the top of my head) plants do not have conciousness. fact. but they do display responses to their environment (tropisms eg phototropism, where a plant will turn to face the sun to allow most light) this relatively simple response could have turned to the relatively more complex responses that we have and use today, afterall, all of everything we do boils down to being a response to something, these responses could have just got slowly more and more complex as we evolved. theres a theory about conciousness and thats from someone with no proper qualifications off the top of my head.

agree with u there, for that, i belive on evolution, but i doubt that a rock or some other space material, react or try to protect themselves for another dangerous material or tries to get a better condition for themselves, yes tnks to the evolution we are were we are, the first samples of live couldn't think a ecuation or try to improve themselves, but tnks to evolution our mind grow slowly untill we are. But where started the evolution? where borned the conscience or the intelligence? very hard to explain with a scientific argument, maybe impossible.

INTERLUDIUM

David and Dober, let me list all your arguments and you say yes or no. If you answer YES, it means that this is an argument to God. If NO, it's not an good argument.

1) Life on earth would not exit without a creator. It's almost impossible those perfect conditions of life here. Yes or No?

2) Beings that think and have feelings couldn't become from dead matter. Of course a previous being has created them. Yes or No?

3) Universe is complex and couldn't exist without a projector. Yes or No?

4) Supernatural phenomena prove that God exist. Impossible miracles have been detected. Yes or No?

5) There're logical proofs of God's existence. Examples here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God
Yes or No?

Something else?

AFTER THIS, WE CAN CONTINUE...

hi amaraticando!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how many time!!

alpha-plus wrote:

Logic was not generated according to our knowledge of science, but all our science is indeed based on logic (the scientific method).

Like amaraticando said, logic (or maths for that matter) is disconnected to the physical word, it is abstract.

What we understand by logic:

"Science that explains the laws, ways and means of
scientific knowledge"

Dictionary of the spanish language (Translation)

"Logic, from the Greek λογικός (logikos) is the study of reasoning."

Wikipedia

"the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference."

Dictionary.com

Now don't tell me that logic isn't born from the science. There are many types of logic. We, obviously, are taking the its main meaning.

Amaraticando wrote:

INTERLUDIUM

David and Dober, let me list all your arguments and you say yes or no. If you answer YES, it means that this is an argument to God. If NO, it's not an good argument.

1) Life on earth would not exit without a creator. It's almost impossible those perfect conditions of life here. Yes or No?

2) Beings that think and have feelings couldn't become from dead matter. Of course a previous being has created them. Yes or No?

3) Universe is complex and couldn't exist without a projector. Yes or No?

4) Supernatural phenomena prove that God exist. Impossible miracles have been detected. Yes or No?

5) There're logical proofs of God's existence. Examples here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God
Yes or No?

Something else?

AFTER THIS, WE CAN CONTINUE...

1) Your question is like you were pointing us with a revolver asking if we believe in god or not. Pointless question.

2) Again.

3) That "projector" can be God, Ala, Zeus, destiny, luck, Ronald McDonald... whoever. Depends of your beliefs. So, why kill the question with a simple YES or NOT?

4) & 5) You link all your arguments against the chirstian God? Its like you were trying to abash christians with their own beliefs.

Why dont we discusse about Zeus existence? Everybody says he's just a myth but maybe not

Dober you are soooo stupid, I will stop talking to you, but really do get a brain.

Dober, you don't know what logic is. It's just the "art" of taking valid conclusions.
For example, if we admit that:
"Every A is B."
and
"Every B is C."
So, we can surely say that "Every A is C."

That's logic. Of course, there're many other kinds of reasoning.
Some are deductive (e.g. this) and other are inductive. To know if the 2 first sentences are true is a job for the Science. Got it?

1) Your question is like you were pointing us with a revolver asking if we believe in god or not. Pointless question.

I am just asking if the "improbable" chance of life on earth is an evidence of the existence of God.

3) That "projector" can be God, Ala, Zeus,
destiny, luck, Ronald McDonald... whoever. Depends of your beliefs. So,
why kill the question with a simple YES or NOT?

That's what I am asking. Doesn't matter who is this projector. The problem is the existence. If the projector doesn't/didn't exist, so all these Gods don't exist.

4) & 5) You link all your arguments against
the chirstian God? Its like you were trying to abash christians with
their own beliefs.

I didn't link to christianism!
Supernaturalism would be caused by the omnipotence.
And usual definitions of "God" (in many religions) include omnipotence.

The "logical proofs" would serve to prove the existence of "some God".
To conclude that this God is Yahweh is (logically) wrong.

Amaraticando wrote:

1) Life on earth would not exit without a creator. It's almost impossible those perfect conditions of life here. Yes or No?

God doesn't create the Earth, just the universe, the earth and his conditions are just the result of the work of the universe, so God create the Earth indirectly, but i think he intervened in the appearance of the life here, so yes.

Amaraticando wrote:

2) Beings that think and have feelings couldn't become from dead matter. Of course a previous being has created them. Yes or No?

Yes

Amaraticando wrote:

3) Universe is complex and couldn't exist without a projector. Yes or No?

This question is similar to 1st one, yes.

Amaraticando wrote:

4) Supernatural phenomena prove that God exist. Impossible miracles have been detected. Yes or No?

yeah there are a lot, but not all are miracles or something from God.

Amaraticando wrote:

5) There're logical proofs of God's existence. Examples here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God
Yes or No??

Yes

alpha-plus wrote:

Dober you are soooo stupid, I will stop talking to you, but really do get a brain.

I will too, but at least I tried to explain you. Not leaving without reason like saying you're stupid.

Amaraticando wrote:

Dober, you don't know what logic is. It's just the "art" of taking valid conclusions.
For example, if we admit that:
"Every A is B."
and
"Every B is C."
So, we can surely say that "Every A is C."

That's logic. Of course, there're many other kinds of reasoning.
Some are deductive (e.g. this) and other are inductive. To know if the 2 first sentences are true is a job for the Science. Got it?

Amaraticando, I told you once and I tell you again: For us A is C (in your example) because everytime we have saw that, and science supports it. In Neptune A is Z.

Quote :

I am just asking if the "improbable" chance of life on earth is an evidence of the existence of God.

Life on Earth, Mars or on Gliese 581 C was product of something. That "something" can we called God and/or be explained with our science. None of them give us the absolute truth.

Quote :

That's what I am asking. Doesn't matter who is this projector. The problem is the existence. If the projector doesn't/didn't exist, so all these Gods don't exist.

By "depends of your beliefs" I meant the scientific theories too.

Quote :

I didn't link to christianism!
Supernaturalism would be caused by the omnipotence.
And usual definitions of "God" (in many religions) include omnipotence.

The "logical proofs" would serve to prove the existence of "some God".
To conclude that this God is Yahweh is (logically) wrong.

We have not why say all supernatural things that happens are miracles. ME I think our science is wrong. That's why we cant explain many many things.

DO ANYTHING, BUT NEVER QUESTION LOGIC'S RELEVANCE. FOR THIS THOU SHALT BE IGNORED FOREVER.

Dober wrote:

Amaraticando, I told you once and I tell you again: For us A is C (in your example) because everytime we have saw that, and science supports it. In Neptune A is Z

yeah, but wherever u will be, logic is logic, the capacity for take conclusions like facts. amaral is just telling u what is logic, and that is. In other planets as u sayed the things will be totally differents but still will be logic, different that our logic but still it.

Dober wrote:

ME I think our science is wrong. That's why we cant explain many many things.

Totally agree, that's what i was saying, ours sciences aren't perfects, and when we uses them, sometimes we get incorrect results.

yea thats true David


We can't find out everything and our science ISN'T perfect but we get answers

Results are usually good but sometimes their are flukes

f*ck! It's the 2nd time that I get logged out when I finish my post.
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Dober:

You are so confused about what logic and science are! Your mind may be a hurricane...
If you believe that supernatural things exist, tell us here what it is and give us proofs.
You can also gain U$ 1,000,000:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

David:

I am lost on this topic, what's the aim?

Amaraticando wrote:

f*ck! It's the 2nd time that I get logged out when I finish my post.
Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh!

stupid amaraticando you should save the text in word before to post it.